Granadaman notes that Congress have given themselves $30,000 in pay increases since the last time they increased the federal minimum wage.
Compare the federal poverty guidelines to the federal minimum wage of $5.15 an hour, and you’ll soon realize that a single parent making minimum wage and working forty hours per week, with no holidays or vacation, grosses less per year ($10,712) than the official poverty level. Before taxes. Even in states, such as liberal Massachusetts, where the wage is higher ($6.25/hr.), a minimum-wage earner barely tops the poverty level.
Admittedly, I do not buy the argument against raising the minimum wage (example). My reasoning these days, however, is complex – and probably wrong, but what the hell. While it seems that increases in minimum wage may hurt the poorest of the poor by keeping them from being able to enter or re-enter the job market, politicians have shown very little will to make it worthwhile for the poorest of the poor to get off welfare and into the workforce and permanent housing (rather than homeless shelters), even with welfare-to-work. If solving poverty were as easy as hiking the minimum wage to a “living wage,” they’d do it. After all, who wouldn’t want “solved poverty” on their resume? But, we’d probably see more jobs go south of the border, too.
Regardless, and returning to the point I’m so circumlocutiously attempting to make: We don’t need a better minimum wage law, we need better labor laws. We need to ensure that those at the bottom of the economic ladder have adequate healthcare and adequate shelter. We need to ensure that if we’re to use the phrase “economic ladder,” that it actually leads up to better paying and more responsible jobs. We need to make sure no child – no person – has to live in a “homeless shelter” with no hope of ever having a permanent, “normal” place of residence. We don’t need a minimum wage law, we need a minimum quality-of-life law. Not a 10 year plan to end homelessness, a right-now plan to end homelessness.
Any ideas?
At any rate, one last thought: the number of millionaires is increasing.
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I say every man for himself. I have no sympathy for the person that is not willing to get it together enough to begin an apprenticeship in some trade, or take the time and 20$ per credit to get an AA and get themselves a higher-than-minimum wage job. If you went ahead and chose to have babies before you could afford them and now have no time for school, tough cookies. You’re an idiot and I do not wish to fund your idiocy. Hooked on something? That was your own choice, as well. Not my problem. There is so much wealth to be had in this country it is ridiculous and sickening.
But if we’re talking about poverty in third world countries, that is a different story. elaine(Quote)
That’s pretty harsh. No sympathy in your heart, eh? Jefe(Quote)
Elaine,
Another problem is that many people who are homeless or very poor simply cannot fend for themselves. Some have severe mental and/or physical difficulties that prevent them from getting any semblance of an education or holding a steady job. In this case, it’s society’s responsibility to ensure that they don’t, well, die.
It may sound crazy, but many poor people have also never had any financial training. The simply don’t know how to work out and adhere to a budget. The don’t know how to make a schedule, hold a job, keep appointments, or do the things that we don’t even think about — even though they want to. I’ve met many of these people. They also need our help to get them on the right track.
Of course, there are some people who don’t want to work. This, surely, is there own fault. But, as I’ve described above, the situation is far more complex. People are homeless for a wide variety of reasons. Those who cannot fend for themselves at all need our help to get an education or income — or, simply, to survive.
Civilization holds life sacred and doesn’t abide by the law of the jungle. Otherwise we’d be no better than animals. WWT(Quote)
I suspect that Elaine has a Republican COLD COLD heart. Not everyone has the mental capacity to get a degree or the skills to better their position in life. granadaman(Quote)
Remember Matthew 25:35
for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. granadaman(Quote)
Well, I’ll expand on my point. I have some semblance of a heart. I do not think we should cut programs already in existence. I just don’t see what raising the minimum wage will accomplish.
I think that part of my problem is that I grew up in and currently live in California. There are so many damn programs and ways to better yourself that don’t cost a dime it is absolutely your choice to not utilize them. And people honestly choose not to. It is more lucrative and easy to remain homeless. I’ve never owned a car, thus have taken the bus all my life, and I’ve talked to my fair share of “homeless” on the bus and on the street. They claim you only have to volunteer 8 hours of work per MONTH for the city, and you get 800 bucks cash. Thats it. No strings attached, spend it howver you want. Food stamps are another thing, they give those away like herpes– I have been many times solicited to buy food stamps for lower than their value so that the seller can get cash for.. whatever.
These people have money to blow, even. I’ve met many people taking the 3–4 dollar bus ride from SF to San Rafael because the food at their kitchen is “better and its less crowded.” Then they ride back to SF to sleep in a shelter.
There are programs to get you a regular shower, get you a donated business suit, and prep you for any sort of interview. There are ample places to stay and eat. There are more than enough programs to get you off whatever youre hooked on, as long as you genuinely want treatment and comply. All for free. If you have little or no income, Junior College is free, there are hundreds of scholarships– I know because everyone I know has gotten one if they applied for one.
And don’t get me started on disabilities. Seriously. Well, I’ll just say that I know MANY people on permanent social security for “disabilities,” including my little brother, who are MORE than capable of getting almost ANY job they’d like. So you can imagine that people with actual disibilities are well taken care of. I know some of them, too.
I used to have sympathy– before I got to know the people and the system. elaine(Quote)
granadaman: just to respond to you and throw you for a loop, I am largely liberal, though I do plan to soon switch my affiliation from Green to Dem. (They are just aren’t practical enough.) I just voted for a measure to give 600 mil to renovate libraries in any way they choose, and in Nov plan to vote for a measure giving billions to create a commuter train and class 1 bicycle path from North Bay to SF. (Hooray!) I’m hugley pro-choice and for gay rights etc.
Also fitting that bill: I’m quite, quite secular– thus Matthew’s words do not move me in they way you might have assumed.
elaine(Quote)
Clearly, the people you cite exist – they’re the reason “Welfare Reform” was enacted way back when. It’s interesting that you say, “It is more lucrative and easy to remain homeless,” but you “do not think we should cut programs already in existence.”
Why the hell not?
What we have here is called a “perverse incentive”: that is, it makes more sense to a lot of poor people to stay poor than to seek a job and permanent housing. And it’s a tragedy that anyone should succumb to it, especially an American who supposedly has absolute (or any) freedom in choosing his or her socioeconomic status.
It’s clear that “so many damn programs and ways to better yourself that don’t cost a dime” aren’t working. It’s time for a new approach. This has as much to do with flat-out pragmatic, realistic policymaking as it does with Granadaman’s Christian perspective (which, even if you’re an atheist, should appeal somewhat – if you’re as compassionate as you claim).
Let’s get real: welfare isn’t good enough for anyone, and poverty is intolerable in one of the world’s richest nations. Period. Jefe(Quote)
Elaine,
The issue in a nutshell: There are some people who take advantage of the system, and there are others who truly need and depend on it.
The hard part is finding a way to help the latter group and not the former. WWT(Quote)
I never said I was compassionate
elaine(Quote)
Got me there.
… but you should be. Jefe(Quote)
Heh. The typical answer. “I know some people who live off the system” That does not excuse the people OR the system. Homelessness and poverty do exist and we as a wealthy nation need to address the problem. granadaman(Quote)
I’m sorry, I still dont understand your logic, granadaman. Why don’t those poor souls begin abusing the system? There is ample room for it here in California. Please, if I am missing some fine point of logic or morality here, help me out. Until then, I remain convinced that in this country people have all the resources they need, and more, to help themselves. I suggest pointing our energies towards, say, Darfur??? Or do you not care as much about those people, since you do not see them on the street everyday on your way to work, littering your pristine community? elaine(Quote)
poverty is intolerable in one of the world’s richest nations
you are correct!! and i say it does not exist!! someone eating out of a garbage can in the back of a restaurant or supermarket in this country is eating 10 times more healthfully than a person in, say, burkina faso, who isnt even the subject of documented “famine” and all hyped up in our newspapers. get real!!!! elaine(Quote)
You’ve got to be kidding me! You’re the one that needs to get real!
Sure, there are famines elsewhere, but does that mean we should tolerate poverty here? Do you honestly believe that “someone eating out of a garbage can” is living the good life? Do you think it’s okay that people sleep on the street?
You’re not uncompassionate, you’re deluded. Jefe(Quote)
Elaine,
I remain convinced that in this country people have all the resources they need, and more, to help themselves.
You’re assuming that all homeless people have the capacity to think logically and rationally. Many don’t — again, because of severe mental illness. That’s why they need more help. WWT(Quote)
Sigh.. OK, 2 different arguements to make here. Let me just tell a story…
At my last job I worked with Julie. I rode the bus to work with Cindy, Glen and Julie, along with 10 other people who also had moderate to severe learning disabilities who worked at other places nearby. The less serverely disabled folk would make sure the people who needed more help got on the correct bus and got off at the correct stop.
Julie could never even remember my name in the 8 months I worked with her. Everyday she would ask. Julie had emotional problems as well: some days would be just fine, others she would be in the ladies room in tears and saying she was going to quit because she thought her supervisor was being mean. This was absolutely addressed and it is clear that it was not the case. Julie had misunderstood something or other, and the next day things ran smoothly.
Julie needed to be supervised during lunchtime even. Her supervisor had to take lunch with her everyday, in effect supervising her for the full 8 hours. This was because Julie would forget to come back to work after lunch if left on her own.
Of course, the work Julie did never involved more than one step. Usually, the work she did could be accomplished by a non-disabled person in 1/4 of the time. Add this to the necessity of being supervised the entire 8 hours, and you can see that Julie and her supervisor, David, were both paid salaries for doing the work of 1/4 of another person. And I think it is great: the self esteem that Julie gets from feeling she is “earning a living” is irreplacable and would be impossible to find in any other situation. And the state funds this.
There is no waiting list for this program. What is stopping the dude on the street from entering such a program? What is the difference between him and Julie?
I know my answer, but I’ve talked enough: let’s hear yours. elaine(Quote)
ps: something that just occured to me– i just got laid off, but Julie continues working happliy, LOL elaine(Quote)
Bueller? Bueller? elaine(Quote)
Poverty is not only a lack of “stuff” but also a state of mind. One man’s poverty in America is not the same as one man’s poverty in Africa. If one does not know that what is touted on American TV as a “must have” then one is now missing that. I know, I have lived in Africa. Didn’t have “stuff”. Didn’t need stuff. granadaman(Quote)
You collecting unemployment yet, Elaine? Jefe(Quote)
No… but you seem to be missing my point. elaine(Quote)
Africans have no problems but homeless in America are in dire “need” of “stuff” because of advertizing? OK, I guess these radical leaps of logic and personal attacks are supposed to tell me that you arent appreciating my devils advocate challenges.. I’ll leave you all to congratulate yourselves on your sameness of thought, as you were so happily doing without me.. (what was that about Al Gore being ineffective?) elaine(Quote)
What exactly is your point? That poor Americans are somehow at fault for their own poverty? That they have it better than poor people elsewhere? Or that some people use and some people abuse the system we have iin place now?
No-one here said Africans have no problems. Charity begins at home: let’s clean up our own backyard before going knockin’ on our neighbor’s door. Jefe(Quote)
Seems there are differences of opinion on what poverty is. I have always thought poverty is a relative term. Thoughts? granadaman(Quote)
PS: I’ll rephrase my “attacks” as a question: Do you feel that poor people deserve a quality of life that is less than your own, or do you feel that they are deserving of respect as human beings and assistance in lifting them out of poverty? Jefe(Quote)
“poverty,” at dictionary.com. Jefe(Quote)
Ok, well looking back, I can see that I come off as hugely emotional and illogical, at the same time as benig heartless.. so let me rephrase..
Here, in California, yes: there are many people who choose the welfare/homeless lifestyle because the weather and economy and huge amount of aid make it possible. They have become comfortable in that lifestyle and are reluctant to change. It might come as a surprize, but let me assure you it is true.
I know this because I know of the hundreds of programs that are available to help one get off the street, and the programs serving the mentally disabled, as well (so you can’t use that as an arguement). The point I was trying to get at with my story about mentally disabled Julie was that there are programs that will literally hold your hand at work. So, what stops the average guy on the street from taking advantage of such a program, which also provides you shelter?
The obvious: drugs and alcohol. It is a shame, but you cannot show up to work high or drunk.. the state will not help you if you do so. You might say: “Well, then, we clearly need more clean up and rehab programs!” Sorry, but at least in California, that is not the answer. Here, there is a wealth of such programs. The problem is compliance.
And that is my contention. I agree that alcoholism is a disease that requires treatment, but the thing is it also requires that tiniest spark of compliance. You must choose to make the program work.
And for whatever reason, people choose not to. And it is my belief that it is impossible for my great state to coddle people any more into making the right decision. We do our due diligence and more, and people continue to choose the lifestyle.
I would like to add that there are homeless people around the country who are in need of more aid. I’m sure we’ve all heard of the coal miner in rural Appalachia (sp?), where the mining operation has stripped the area and moved on, leaving him jobless and with a house with no value.
I feel for those, but what I was discussing earlier is the inner-city homeless, who have a plethora of resources, and who, coincidentally, really push my buttons.. as you can tell… elaine(Quote)
You never did answer my questions, but while I formulate a response, could you clarify for me:
Are you referring to individual homeless people, aka “bums”? Or to some other group of people? I’m unfamiliar with the term “inner-city homeless.” Jefe(Quote)
Erm.. I’m not trying to get technical.. yes, I suppose I mean “bums.” People inhabiting a large city who do not have a permanent place of residence, whether or not they are panhandling.
To answer your questions: I am not in a position to judge whether anyone “deserves” more or less “stuff” than I, or deserves a different quality of life. I can only contend that people living near an urban environment in this country have enough resources to make a living for themselves, or enter an apprenticeship or other educational path towards that goal.
I do believe that assistance should be available, furthermore I believe enough is already available. (At least, near cities.) elaine(Quote)
In the future I will try not to “complicate” matters here with the Socratic method. I will compose my posts with ultimate brevity, for ease of digestion by the internet-MTV-ADD generation.
So, in deference to Socrates, let me get this straight:
You believe that people who live on the streets have chosen to do so as a “lifestyle”? Jefe(Quote)
Some of them, yes.
I have talked to them and hung out with them. elaine(Quote)
Well, ignoring for the moment the howling logical error you make by extending to all homeless people the motivations of the few you’ve met:
Why would someone choose homelessness in Massachusetts? There are many here. Or New York? Or Detroit? Certainly not places a rational person would choose to live without shelter.
Certainly some individuals – a very small number, I would guess – have chosen to live as vagabonds, perfectly capable of self-sustainance, but undesiring of it. Those, however, are not the majority of the individual homeless on the streets, as anyone who has actually worked with homeless people will readily tell you.
There are, in fact, some indications that people who have become homeless choose to remain homeless rather than seek assistance. This is human nature: especially in America, it’s shameful to accept charity, to admit one needs help. That’s at least one reason unrelated to substance abuse that people remain on the streets. Another is mental illness, which in Julie’s case was minor, but in many cases can prevent someone from making rational decisions (e.g., schizophrenia).
Certainly, systems exist to help people on the streets; though, the “welfare state” is geared more towards families than individuals on the street. You’ve met a couple homeless or formerly homeless individuals who left you with the impression that the system offers them a sweet deal, where they don’t have to work and little or nothing is expected of them. It may be good enough for them, but again, they are not the majority of the homeless population.
Yes, there are resources out there. On my way to work every day, I walk by a “day shelter,” where people can go to get all manner of services. But, these people still live on the streets. To say that they have chosen this as a “lifestyle” is to ignore the real barriers to their self-sufficiency, even insofar as that may mean simply seeking help.
If the resources available were adequate or proper, there would be no homeless people. If society gave equal opportunity to all, there would be no homeless people. If we looked at “bums” on the street as people, and we asked them why they are homeless and what would it take so they wouldn’t be, there would be no homeless people.
In the final analysis, we live in a society that has decided – probably for reasons much the same as your own – that homelessness is acceptable. I posit that it is not. A society that allows homelessness to persist gives rise to a society that allows violence against homeless individuals to take place. And that’s not a society in which I am happy to live. Jefe(Quote)
I think that to come to some sort of understanding we have to stop beating around the politically correct bush. The main feature of homelessness is alcohol and drug abuse. We need to stop hiding behind this “mental ilness” screen, because that is not the issue. If you have severe schizophrenia, they put you in a home (if you do not have family members willnig or able to care for you) so you don’t frighten and bother people. If you have a mild mental illness, you can participate in programs like Julie’s, that hold your hand thru work and life.
Basically, if you are homeless on the street and mentally ill, you do not have severe illness (because they would put you away in that case) or you are not eligible for work programs because you are unable to show up to work sober. (This is a terrible generalization, and there are many shades of grey when taking about any section of humanity, but we have to clarify the issue in order to continue this.)
I’ll bet your instinct is to counter with “alcoholism is a disease, too.” I agree that it is. But, with all the programs available to help you kick it (SO MANY in california), on a certain level people choose that path. And I don’t mean “choose” as in choose a funky hairstyle. Of course the guy doesn’t think “hey, being drunk all the time and homeless is so much fun, I totally CHOOSE this,” but people are unwilling to accept help or cannot summon the strenth required for too many reasons to get into here, and those are choices, as unromantic as they are.
At some point, we have to hold people responsible for the life choices they have made and cannot coddle them any more. And I believe our system does more than enough in this state (I am not qualified to talk about any other).
“If the resources available were adequate or proper, there would be no homeless
people.”
Totally rediculous. elaine(Quote)
If a “cure” for alcoholism was invented, and the most weak soul could be prevented from taking a drink, perhaps your homeless-free would would emerge. But doesn’t that smack of 1984 just a bit?
People make bad choices.. that is a feature of a free society.. elaine(Quote)
Actually, they don’t “put you away” if you’re severely mentally ill any more because they closed most of the mental institutions, starting in the 1960s and up through the 1980s and have not reopened them.
Alcohol/drug abuse is often the result of “self-medication” for such illnesses.
About 75% of those on the streets, according to a study in Massachusetts, have no substance abuse or severe mental health issues; though, almost half are disabled enough to receive Federal disability money, which is pretty tough to get.
Anyway, you’ve made many assertions that are not backed up by facts or research. It’s clear that you’ve hardened your heart and closed your mind. Since your mind’s made up, I’ll not further waste your time or mine trying to persuade you from your deeply held beliefs.
I’ll just pray to my God that you don’t end up homeless. Jefe(Quote)
You are being very unfair saying that my mind has closed. You are correct in saying that I have not done research on the subject– it is not a huge interest of mine. But my opinions arent baseless..I base them on personal experience.
I have much personal experience with the deaf population– under federal eyes “disabled” folk. Permit me to share. My brother, for example, is hard of hearing. Technically (audiologically) he does not fall under the catergory of “deaf” (eligible for aid). But, like many of his friends, through the appeals process he was able to convince a judge that he has enough difficulty getting and keep a job that he indeed is in need of federal aid (a lie.) He, and every single one of his friends (varying degrees of deafness) is on SS, and few of them have ever held a job for more than a few months. Why bother?
Hard to get? I think not. elaine(Quote)
Very good read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment
It would seem to me that those that fall through your cracks are treading the fine line between treatable in an institution and better off in society.
I would support additional research into these areas.
Thus, it still seems to me that this is a scientific effort, not a social one. This is not something that can be magically swept away with new work programs and minimum wage laws. This is a health problem that really has persisted thru centuries that we are a long way off from solving, if there is even a solution.
There, I said it in a way that doesn’t demonize anyone. Satisfied? Hopefully this will turn you slightly from the belief that I need to be prayed for, which I find highly distasteful and offensive, in many ways.
elaine(Quote)
And I’m sorry but I just have to point out that they DO indeed still “put people away,” just less of them. A neighbor of mine’s son is schizophrenic and she was given the choice to have him sent to a home or care for him herself.
As the article states, it is a modern trend in mental healthcare to deinstitutionalize. elaine(Quote)
But that doesn’t mean they are all closed. We can’t get anywhere if you keep spinning your stories. elaine(Quote)
Your personal experience is hardly broad enough to base policy on, however.
Why bother getting a job when you can be on SSI or SSDI? Because it’s not enough to live off of if you actually want an apartment, clothing, food, etc. Many people on the streets do indeed have income, but it’s not enough for them to rent an apartment.
Just because the mental health issue is difficult to solve does not excuse society from leaving the mentally ill to fend for themselves on the streets.
Your neighbor’s son was lucky that there was someone to car for him; many people do not have anyone to be “given the choice” and end up on the streets. Not everyone is lucky enough to have family friends on whom they can rely when they hit hard times.
I never said they were all closed.
At any rate, you choose to ignore the fact that despite all of the “coddling” programs out there to help homeless people, there are still thousands of homeless people. I said “adequate and proper resources” are necessary because the current resources – like those that helped your pal Julie – help a precious few while the vast majority languish on the streets. We don’t need more resources (as many advocates argue), we need better, scientifically-informed resources. And, I’ve never argued for coddling.
Several thousand “bums” were living on the streets or in shelter this winter in Massachusetts. If you think that’s okay because you think they “chose” it as a “lifestyle,” then you must sleep easy at night.
I don’t, however, and I won’t until they’re off the streets. Jefe(Quote)
PS: While I don’t apologize for praying for you (I pray for everyone), I do apologize for using prayer as a weapon. Jefe(Quote)
“…the current resources – like those that helped your pal Julie – help a precious few while the vast majority languish on the streets.”
The vast majority of what? elaine(Quote)
um… homeless people. Jefe(Quote)
The vast majority of homeless people languish on the streets? elaine(Quote)
What are you getting at? Jefe(Quote)
Well, i dont see what youre getting at. you imply that there is some demographic that is not getting aid.
as far as i know, julie was never homeless. she particitapes in a program for the learning disabled.
there are many more people living in the us that either suffer from a learning disability or mental illness than there are homeless people, so that cant be what you mean.
if you just mean that homeless people lack houses, well, duh. how does that futher this discussion?
anyways, i still find this fun, but if it grows tiresome to you, ill just close in saying that i agree with you that there is a mental heatlh crisis in this counrty and that homelessness is related to this crisis, but the “homeless problem” is not one that can be solved with more social programs. “better” social problems, maybe, but that change has to come from scientific finds in the field of mental health, not just better budgeting.
in other words, when you find the cure for alcoholism, let me know. until then, more federal monies and time spent on this problem would be pointless and would be better spent elsewhere (the environment). elaine(Quote)
oops, i meant to say “when you find the sure for alcoholism, autism and schizophrenia..” elaine(Quote)
Well, you used Julie as an example in a debate about homelessness; I therefore had assumed that she had been homeless. Anyway, my point was that there are programs that do help some people out of homelessness, but many more people do not succeed.
And, while a cure for alcoholism, autism, and schizophrenia will help about 1/5 of the homeless population, it will do nothing for the functionally illiterate, the severely depressed, the emotionally dysfunctional, and the fact that with no permanent address, it’s damn hard to get a job, especially if you combine homelessness with low job skills and functional illiteracy (about 30% of the adult workforce cannot read a schedule).
At any rate, I think we’re beating dead horses at this point. I don’t seem to be able to say anything to sway you from believing that most people who live on the street did it to themselves, and you’re not going to convince me that it’s not a problem that needs fixing or that homeless people deserve to be homeless. So, I submit that we might end this thread.
And, I wish you could edit these damn comments, too. Jefe(Quote)