BOSTON — So several years ago, before I went to Israel, travel was common. One time, I was on a date with a wonderful girl. The evening was amazing — a tasty dinner, a few drinks, and great conversation. We were laughing and joking. Everything was going extremely well.
Then, after she volunteered to give me a lift to my apartment, I gave her a kiss on the cheek just before I left the car. At the exact moment that my lips touched her cheek, I felt an immediate sense of cold revulsion. All of the energy and excitement of the date disappeared in a puff of disgust. Somehow I knew that she had also sensed the same feeling, and that was the first and last time we saw each other.
Dating columnists can opine all they want about attributes like looks, money, and personality. But the hard fact is that sometimes there is simply no physical chemistry between two people even though they get along extremely well. (I think the latest theories on the reasons have to do with hormones and immune-system compatibility.)
This leads me to an observation. In traditional, Orthodox Judaism — and probably in several other religions and traditional cultures as well — Jewish singles are not supposed to touch another member of the opposite sex that is neither a close relative nor a spouse. Not even a hug or a handshake. This is the principle of shomer negiah, which is meant to avoid any temptation to have pre-marital sex or commit adultery — a handshake can turn into a hug, which can turn into a kiss, and so on. Although, as Frum Satire wryly notes, there is even a hazy line in Orthodox communities. (I wonder what Birthright Israel recent visitors and Christian Israel tours on flights to Israel think about this aspect of Jewish religion and Jewish history.)
But, as I noted above — and as countless single and formerly-single people have probably also seen — sometimes there is simply no chemistry when people start to become intimate physically. Sometimes just kissing someone or holding a person’s hand can reveal whether there is any chemistry. It is difficult to see if chemistry exists when the most a couple can do is sit close to each other and talk. (Under traditional, Jewish law, the couple cannot even be in the same room alone.)
Now, it is obvious that chemistry is indeed important in a marriage. But my question is: How do Orthodox Jews who follow shomer negiah determine if there is any chemistry in a relationship? Maybe I’m a typically-dense guy who is clueless about these types of things, but I do wonder since I’m a newly-observant, modern-Orthodox Jew here in Israel who is still learning.
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They don’t. Chemistry is irrelevant in arranged marriages such as this. Such a policy dates from the time before the idea of love. You cannot fully love someone unless you have this chemistry, and if you cannot determine this ahead of time, there are two possible outcomes: divorce or misery. Now, you tell me how the policy of shomer negiah makes sense. Dan(Quote)
Dan, with all due respect, you don’t know what you’re talking about. There are no arranged marriages in Orthodox Judaism.
Orthodox Jews on the left will use Internet dating sites like JDate, or they will meet people at parties, through friends and family, and so on. Orthodox Jews on the right will usually use a matchmaker, but then it is up to each party to take it from there once they have a first date. Just like everywhere else, any party can decide to stop seeing the other person. So people still want the “chemistry.”
Even when there were arranged marriages, centuries ago, the girl always had a right to say “no” — and the couple had to meet at least once beforehand anyway. But that is not relevant today. Sam Scott(Quote)
I don’t believe in slippery slope justifications for certain rules/laws. Either kissing/holding hands/etc is wrong , or it isn’t. Draw the line at the point you want things to stop — not 5 steps before it. What about eye contact, or saying a funny joke, or ???? That could all eventually lead up to sex too. Mike(Quote)
Mike, the advocates of shomer negiah do think that it is wrong precisely because it can, in theory, lead to immoral sex. The point at which it should stop is physical contact of any sort.
There is a law in the Talmud — which, for nearly all Orthodox Jews, is just as binding as the Torah itself — that says people are to “build a fence around the Torah.” If it is wrong to do X, then under that principle it is important not to do anything approaching X.
Again, I’m torn on the issue. I’m just presenting the other side of the story. Sam Scott(Quote)
But then how do you know if you have chemistry or not? You said yourself you can’t really know unless you get physically close to someone. If you don’t have physical contact until marriage, you can’t know if you have chemistry. Again, if you have no chemistry, there are two options: divorce or misery.
“Now, it is obvious that chemistry is indeed important in a marriage. But my question is: How do Orthodox Jews who follow shomer negiah determine if there is any chemistry in a relationship?” Until the couple is married, they clearly cannot, based on YOUR argument. So I ask again: how does the policy of shomer negiah make sense (assuming, of course, you care about a happy marriage)? Dan(Quote)
Dan, I don’t know. That’s why I posed the question to any readers who have more experience in the area than I.
There are positive aspects to being shomer negiah, but I’ll save that for tomorrow. Sam Scott(Quote)
OK, I can do it now. I will give an example based on the opposite end of the spectrum.
Say that you’re the type of guy or girl who goes to bars, makes out with people, and hooks-up with them shortly thereafter. And you do it all the time. The end result is that the physical pleasure is cheapened as you become desensitized by doing it all the time. It’s the Law of Diminishing Returns. You eat one slice of pizza, and it’s great. You eat four, and the fifth slice does little for you. When you meet someone special whom you really like, the physical aspect does not mean as much because you’ve “been there, done that.”
Here’s an example. I once dating a girl with whom I was almost shomer negiah. We didn’t touch each other for months. It is hard to describe, but there was something special exciting and enticing about being with a girl with whom you could do nothing. Then, months later, she reached out and held my hand. I cannot explain how amazing that felt. Just the act of holding my hand — and nothing more — was wonderful. I doubt many people today ever experience that feeling because people move so quickly with the physical aspect. And in the case of being shomer negiah, imagine how beautiful it must feel finally to touch your husband or wife after the wedding.
That’s the other side of the story, as best as I can describe it.
(The other-other side of the story is that being shomer negiah is simply Jewish law, and it doesn’t matter whether it is sensible, reasonable or logical. It’s what Orthodox Jews must follow. Full stop.) Sam Scott(Quote)
Hmmm. That’s not a bad argument. I suppose it’s like when someone happens to be blind — their other senses compensate for the lack of vision, and become more sensitive. If you cannot have any physical contact, your other aspects of the relationship — namely, communication/mental contact — compensate, becoming more sensitive. Which is all good, and I fully support it.
HOWEVER, I would personally still like to experience at least some of the physical contact prior to marriage, to ensure that my physical comfort with my partner matched my mental comfort. You can certainly wait if you want; however, what happens if, when you finally do get to touch the person, there is no chemistry? Is your mental chemistry enough to overcome the lack of physical chemistry? No one but you can answer that, obviously. However, I can at least see SOME of your point.
Dan(Quote)
“Mike, the advocates of shomer negiah do think that it is wrong precisely because it can, in theory, lead to immoral sex. The point at which it should stop is physical contact of any sort.”
So men won’t shake hands with women?
Men who shake hands with men leads to sex? Mike(Quote)
Mike, no, men and women are follow “shomer negiah” do not even shake hands with members of the opposite sex.
Regarding two men: This is an interesting point. In traditional, Orthodox thought, everyone is hetrosexual. So it’s a non-issue. Now, of course, this is absurd. But the Orthodox community, for the most part, prefers to pretend that it does not exist.
Still, I’d be curious to hear from a gay, Orthodox Jew on what he does: If he follows shomer negiah, does he have contact with women but not men? Does he only have physical contact with men? If so, what problems does it present? I don’t know these answers. Sam Scott(Quote)
Have you figured out how you are going to handle the chemistry issue? Would you be willing to roll the dice on a marriage predicated on shomar negiah, hoping that the physical chemistry is present or will develop? Or would to rather tweak shomar negiah to, say, kissing her before marriage, just to make sure you have some chemistry first? Or are you still trying to figure it out? Dan(Quote)
Oops. I guess I should proofread my posts. I REALLY REALLY want to know if you have figured it out, I suppose.
Dan(Quote)
Dan, I’m not going to discuss my personal life in detail on the blog. I just posted the issue in general for discussion. Feel free to e-mail me privately.
Sam Scott(Quote)
I guess why even bother to follow the rule of a religion if think it is getting in the way of finding out something that is important in your life? If ultimate, you are trying to avoid pre-marital sex, there are ways to do that and still have the contact necessary to determine if the chemistry exists? Mike(Quote)
Chemistry doesn’t need physical contact. Real relationships are based on a lot more profound commonalities than physical attraction. I have six children, two married, two in-the-process and two looking forward to it
With the exception of one daughter who opted-out of religious observance, they are all Torah observant Jews. My daughter summed it up best — Real Compatibility (Goals, Likes, Friends etc.) + Attraction = Liklihood of Long Term Commitment.
As someone married 35 years let me say this: the passion of youth burned out about age 30+; Family Purity and Mutual Committment kept the fires going ever since, and I enjoy the warm toasty experience of a warm fire better than the pain of passion.
Wishing you the best of luck. Want to spend a Shabbat in Shilo give me a shout!
YBA Yoel Ben-Avraham(Quote)
Yoel, I understand what you’re saying, and I agree with much of it. But here is my question:
Your daughter’s equation mentioned Attraction. But how can a person know whether the chemistry is there any any touching at all. In the story that began my post, I mentioned a date I was on. Were were both attracted to each other, but for some reason, the chemistry disappeared when I kissed her on the cheek. Say, for example, we had gotten married — we would have been in for a horrible surprise on our wedding night. Sam Scott(Quote)
Sam, there is more to life than sex, and one bad experience doesn’t mean you’re in for a lifetime of misery. Jeff Guevin(Quote)
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