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	<title>Comments on: Yiddish Report: Speak Hebrew, Not Yiddish</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.samueljscott.com/2010/03/06/speak-hebrew-not-yiddish/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.samueljscott.com/2010/03/06/speak-hebrew-not-yiddish/</link>
	<description>Understanding politics, finance prediction, dating rules, marcom marketing, and the Israel conflict by a global writing team</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 23:07:31 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Israel Tours &#124; Jewish Singles &#124; Birthright Israel &#124; Flights &#124; Considerations</title>
		<link>http://www.samueljscott.com/2010/03/06/speak-hebrew-not-yiddish/comment-page-1/#comment-7296</link>
		<dc:creator>Israel Tours &#124; Jewish Singles &#124; Birthright Israel &#124; Flights &#124; Considerations</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 15:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samueljscott.com/?p=4455#comment-7296</guid>
		<description>[...] a bar­rier between them and oth­ers. For exam­ple, ultra-Orthodox Jews, among oth­ers, should stop speak­ing Yid­dish and Ashke­nazi Hebrew in a coun­try that speaks the orig­i­nal, Middle-Eastern Hebrew; stop dress­ing like [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[…] a bar­rier between them and oth­ers. For exam­ple, ultra-Orthodox Jews, among oth­ers, should stop speak­ing Yid­dish and Ashke­nazi Hebrew in a coun­try that speaks the orig­i­nal, Middle-Eastern Hebrew; stop dress­ing like […]</p>
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		<title>By: DJ</title>
		<link>http://www.samueljscott.com/2010/03/06/speak-hebrew-not-yiddish/comment-page-1/#comment-7041</link>
		<dc:creator>DJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 03:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samueljscott.com/?p=4455#comment-7041</guid>
		<description>&quot;Zion­ism is entirely a prod­uct of Euro­pean ideas, prac­tices, and insti­tu­tions&quot;

Not true. 
Zionism can be found in early Sephardic literature such as Yehuda haLevy and Ramban. Modern Zionism&#039;s flaws are &quot;entirely a prod­uct of Euro­pean ideas&quot;.

And, by the way, European Zionists were the ones who really despised the Yiddish language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Zion­ism is entirely a prod­uct of Euro­pean ideas, prac­tices, and insti­tu­tions”</p>
<p>Not true.<br />
Zionism can be found in early Sephardic literature such as Yehuda haLevy and Ramban. Modern Zionism’s flaws are “entirely a prod­uct of Euro­pean ideas”.</p>
<p>And, by the way, European Zionists were the ones who really despised the Yiddish language.</p>
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		<title>By: DJ</title>
		<link>http://www.samueljscott.com/2010/03/06/speak-hebrew-not-yiddish/comment-page-1/#comment-7040</link>
		<dc:creator>DJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 03:32:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samueljscott.com/?p=4455#comment-7040</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t like the &quot;Sephardic&quot; pronunciation used in Israel. It sounds harsh, unpleasant and unnatural -- a non-Jewish friend once described it as a &quot;retarded German trying to speak Arabic&quot;, and I couldn&#039;t agree more.

I always liked the Oriental versions of Hebrew: Iraqi, Syrian... 

Both Sephardic (the true one, not the one spoken in Israel) and Ashkenazic Hebrew are far from Biblical Hebrew.  
When comparing both - especially Ashkenazic - to related languages, such as Classical Arabic and Assyrian Aramaic, this becomes really obvious.

In Oriental Hebrew:
*there are differences between Tav/Thav with/without dagesh 
*between Tet and Tav 
*Vav is Waw (like in Arabic and Aramaic)
*3ayin (like in Arabic and Aramaic)
*7et and Khaf are not the same 
*Aleph is a full glottal stop
*Seen and Samekh are not the same
*He sounds like an H
*Gimel with/without dagesh - hard G or like the Arabic/Aramaic letter Ghein or Jeem 
*Qoof and Kaph are not the same
*Resh is thrilled</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don’t like the “Sephardic” pronunciation used in Israel. It sounds harsh, unpleasant and unnatural — a non-Jewish friend once described it as a “retarded German trying to speak Arabic”, and I couldn’t agree more.</p>
<p>I always liked the Oriental versions of Hebrew: Iraqi, Syrian… </p>
<p>Both Sephardic (the true one, not the one spoken in Israel) and Ashkenazic Hebrew are far from Biblical Hebrew.<br />
When comparing both — especially Ashkenazic — to related languages, such as Classical Arabic and Assyrian Aramaic, this becomes really obvious.</p>
<p>In Oriental Hebrew:<br />
*there are differences between Tav/Thav with/without dagesh<br />
*between Tet and Tav<br />
*Vav is Waw (like in Arabic and Aramaic)<br />
*3ayin (like in Arabic and Aramaic)<br />
*7et and Khaf are not the same<br />
*Aleph is a full glottal stop<br />
*Seen and Samekh are not the same<br />
*He sounds like an H<br />
*Gimel with/without dagesh — hard G or like the Arabic/Aramaic letter Ghein or Jeem<br />
*Qoof and Kaph are not the same<br />
*Resh is thrilled</p>
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		<title>By: Ironmistress</title>
		<link>http://www.samueljscott.com/2010/03/06/speak-hebrew-not-yiddish/comment-page-1/#comment-4348</link>
		<dc:creator>Ironmistress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samueljscott.com/?p=4455#comment-4348</guid>
		<description>This is also why the Hebrew alphabet has also &quot;koph&quot; and &quot;kaph&quot; letters. They originally have denoted different phonems. 

The Sephardim even today pronounce koph and kaph differently, while the Ashkenazim pronounce them the same. Yiddish uses only koph; kaph is reserved only for Biblical usage.

Koph, is, of course, the same as Latin Q, while kaph is Latin K. Latin C, on the other hand, is an Etruscan variant of gimel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is also why the Hebrew alphabet has also “koph” and “kaph” letters. They originally have denoted different phonems. </p>
<p>The Sephardim even today pronounce koph and kaph differently, while the Ashkenazim pronounce them the same. Yiddish uses only koph; kaph is reserved only for Biblical usage.</p>
<p>Koph, is, of course, the same as Latin Q, while kaph is Latin K. Latin C, on the other hand, is an Etruscan variant of gimel.</p>
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		<title>By: Ironmistress</title>
		<link>http://www.samueljscott.com/2010/03/06/speak-hebrew-not-yiddish/comment-page-1/#comment-4347</link>
		<dc:creator>Ironmistress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Apr 2010 07:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samueljscott.com/?p=4455#comment-4347</guid>
		<description>This is a phenomenon known as phonem shift.

The letter &quot;tav&quot; denoted originally a strongly aspirated T phonem, which in Aramaic palatalized into similar phonem as in English &quot;thing&quot;. That is the reason why the Hebrew alphabet has both &quot;tet&quot; and &quot;tav&quot;; &quot;tet&quot; denotes an unaspirated, normal T phonem.

The [th] phonem has a tendency to palatalize into [s] in speech. This phenomenon is called &quot;seseo&quot; in Spanish language - the European Spaniards pronounce &quot;c&quot; and &quot;z&quot; as [th] while the Latinoamericans pronounce it as [s]. In the Ibero-Romanian stem language in the Dark Ages, the Latin C phonem, which originally was pronounced as [k], became first [tch], then [tsh] and later [th] like Hebrew &quot;taav&quot;. It is not that Spaniards had lisp, it has been like that since the Middle Ages! 

The Ladino language, &quot;Jewish Spanish&quot;, which is the same for Spanish as Yiddish is for German, has retained all the Medieval Spanish six fricative phonems, while Modern Spanish has only two. 

My own first language, Finnish, has experienced this shift too. The word for water, &quot;vesi&quot;, used to be &quot;veti&quot; already in the 13th century. That is why we still have words like &quot;vetinen&quot; (watery) instead of &quot;vesinen&quot;.

That is also the reason why the Sephardim celebrate brith and Ashkenazim have bris. The final [th] has transformed into [s] during the centuries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a phenomenon known as phonem shift.</p>
<p>The letter “tav” denoted originally a strongly aspirated T phonem, which in Aramaic palatalized into similar phonem as in English “thing”. That is the reason why the Hebrew alphabet has both “tet” and “tav”; “tet” denotes an unaspirated, normal T phonem.</p>
<p>The [th] phonem has a tendency to palatalize into [s] in speech. This phenomenon is called “seseo” in Spanish language — the European Spaniards pronounce “c” and “z” as [th] while the Latinoamericans pronounce it as [s]. In the Ibero-Romanian stem language in the Dark Ages, the Latin C phonem, which originally was pronounced as [k], became first [tch], then [tsh] and later [th] like Hebrew “taav”. It is not that Spaniards had lisp, it has been like that since the Middle Ages! </p>
<p>The Ladino language, “Jewish Spanish”, which is the same for Spanish as Yiddish is for German, has retained all the Medieval Spanish six fricative phonems, while Modern Spanish has only two. </p>
<p>My own first language, Finnish, has experienced this shift too. The word for water, “vesi”, used to be “veti” already in the 13th century. That is why we still have words like “vetinen” (watery) instead of “vesinen”.</p>
<p>That is also the reason why the Sephardim celebrate brith and Ashkenazim have bris. The final [th] has transformed into [s] during the centuries.</p>
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		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://www.samueljscott.com/2010/03/06/speak-hebrew-not-yiddish/comment-page-1/#comment-3890</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 03:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samueljscott.com/?p=4455#comment-3890</guid>
		<description>You seem to know little or nothing about Ancient Israelite/Judaean pronunciation of Hebrew.  Who are these &quot;linguists&quot; you speak of?  Did you know that the &quot;tav&quot; in Shabbat used to be pronounced &quot;th,&quot; which diverged to &quot;s&quot; and &quot;t&quot; in mine and your favored pronunciations, respectively?  You also seem to know little about modern Hebrew to claim as you do that there is a difference in stress in daily speech.  Ashkenazi Hebrew differs from Sephardi Hebrew perhaps in its sparing use of Yiddish words in an ironic sense.  Additionally, most Sephardim born in the last twenty years in this country pronounce the &quot;resh&quot; the exact same way that Ashkenazim do.  Or perhaps you are bemoaning &quot;Ashkenazi Hebrew&quot;&#039;s dearth of Arabic slang (which it certainly does incorporate).  So unless you are alleging that the pronunciation of Hebrew in ritual contexts is greatly threatening Israeli society, you&#039;d better stick to things you know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You seem to know little or nothing about Ancient Israelite/Judaean pronunciation of Hebrew.  Who are these “linguists” you speak of?  Did you know that the “tav” in Shabbat used to be pronounced “th,” which diverged to “s” and “t” in mine and your favored pronunciations, respectively?  You also seem to know little about modern Hebrew to claim as you do that there is a difference in stress in daily speech.  Ashkenazi Hebrew differs from Sephardi Hebrew perhaps in its sparing use of Yiddish words in an ironic sense.  Additionally, most Sephardim born in the last twenty years in this country pronounce the “resh” the exact same way that Ashkenazim do.  Or perhaps you are bemoaning “Ashkenazi Hebrew“‘s dearth of Arabic slang (which it certainly does incorporate).  So unless you are alleging that the pronunciation of Hebrew in ritual contexts is greatly threatening Israeli society, you’d better stick to things you know.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.samueljscott.com/2010/03/06/speak-hebrew-not-yiddish/comment-page-1/#comment-3889</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 01:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samueljscott.com/?p=4455#comment-3889</guid>
		<description>Sam -  I am surprised you find it so insulting that someone would choose a certain language or speak it in a certain way.  In the what, 15 years that I have known you, you seemed to have done plenty of seraching for a culture, a religion, a life that you felt was right for you and has lead you to where you are today.  If speaking yiddish gives one a connection to their ancestors - so what?  Also, the whole &quot;conforming to society&quot; really just seems so foreign to me as someone from the US - I am a bit shocked that you would so quickly leave that attitude on the other side of the Atlantic...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam —  I am surprised you find it so insulting that someone would choose a certain language or speak it in a certain way.  In the what, 15 years that I have known you, you seemed to have done plenty of seraching for a culture, a religion, a life that you felt was right for you and has lead you to where you are today.  If speaking yiddish gives one a connection to their ancestors — so what?  Also, the whole “conforming to society” really just seems so foreign to me as someone from the US — I am a bit shocked that you would so quickly leave that attitude on the other side of the Atlantic…</p>
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		<title>By: Elliot Ratzman</title>
		<link>http://www.samueljscott.com/2010/03/06/speak-hebrew-not-yiddish/comment-page-1/#comment-3885</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliot Ratzman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 19:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samueljscott.com/?p=4455#comment-3885</guid>
		<description>What an assholey insulting &#039;consideration&#039; which manages to diss Europe, the religious, and the radically secular. A vibrant Diaspora culture, an extensive literature, a proud tradition of labor radicalism, and the bulk of Jewish life in Europe is constituted by Yiddish. Zionism is entirely a product of European ideas, practices, and institutions, so don&#039;t be hatin&#039; on Europe unless you want to be called &quot;self-hatin&#039;&quot;. Unless you consider new forms of weaponry and torture &#039;high culture&#039; I&#039;m not sure how the recent incarnations of Hebrew-speaking nationalism have added anything substantial to Jewish life. My secular friends who have dedicated their lives to the revival of Yiddish life deserve more respect than this shoddy blow-off. The ultra-orthos make up, what? 10-20% of the Israeli population and growing (esp since their decimated numbers in 1945), Though I loathe their racism and religious prejudices, I think they hardly constitute a fringe movement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What an assholey insulting ‘consideration’ which manages to diss Europe, the religious, and the radically secular. A vibrant Diaspora culture, an extensive literature, a proud tradition of labor radicalism, and the bulk of Jewish life in Europe is constituted by Yiddish. Zionism is entirely a product of European ideas, practices, and institutions, so don’t be hatin’ on Europe unless you want to be called “self-hatin’”. Unless you consider new forms of weaponry and torture ‘high culture’ I’m not sure how the recent incarnations of Hebrew-speaking nationalism have added anything substantial to Jewish life. My secular friends who have dedicated their lives to the revival of Yiddish life deserve more respect than this shoddy blow-off. The ultra-orthos make up, what? 10–20% of the Israeli population and growing (esp since their decimated numbers in 1945), Though I loathe their racism and religious prejudices, I think they hardly constitute a fringe movement.</p>
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		<title>By: Abby Gezunt</title>
		<link>http://www.samueljscott.com/2010/03/06/speak-hebrew-not-yiddish/comment-page-1/#comment-3884</link>
		<dc:creator>Abby Gezunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 19:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samueljscott.com/?p=4455#comment-3884</guid>
		<description>Hmm... two problems: 1. Does anyone really &quot;speak&quot; Ashkenazic Hebrew&quot;? That is, have a conversation, discuss the news, tell a joke, etc.? I don&#039;t think so. Maybe they pray or learn using Ashkenazic pronunciation, just like their parents prayed, or grandparents, or great grandparents for hundreds and hundreds of years. Is that so bad?

Secondly, that Sephardic/Israeli pronunciation is closer to ancient Hebrew is something there&#039;s no reason to believe. Yes, the stress was probably more like Israeli stress, but we can be sure that, like Ashkenazic Hebrew and unlike Israeli Hebrew, there were pronunciation differences between kamatz and patach, segol and tzere, and tav with and without a dagesh. That&#039;s why, as you put it, when a word&quot; ends in a &#039;t&#039;&quot;, someone might pronounce it &quot;like an &#039;s&#039;&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm… two problems: 1. Does anyone really “speak” Ashkenazic Hebrew”? That is, have a conversation, discuss the news, tell a joke, etc.? I don’t think so. Maybe they pray or learn using Ashkenazic pronunciation, just like their parents prayed, or grandparents, or great grandparents for hundreds and hundreds of years. Is that so bad?</p>
<p>Secondly, that Sephardic/Israeli pronunciation is closer to ancient Hebrew is something there’s no reason to believe. Yes, the stress was probably more like Israeli stress, but we can be sure that, like Ashkenazic Hebrew and unlike Israeli Hebrew, there were pronunciation differences between kamatz and patach, segol and tzere, and tav with and without a dagesh. That’s why, as you put it, when a word” ends in a ‘t’”, someone might pronounce it “like an ‘s’”.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Gybels</title>
		<link>http://www.samueljscott.com/2010/03/06/speak-hebrew-not-yiddish/comment-page-1/#comment-3882</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Gybels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 18:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samueljscott.com/?p=4455#comment-3882</guid>
		<description>Soooo stupid! I would laugh if it wasn&#039;t that sad...
Paul Gybels
Professor of Yiddish Language, Literature and Culture
Institute for Jewish Studies
Universiteit Antwerpen (Belgium, Europe)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Soooo stupid! I would laugh if it wasn’t that sad…<br />
Paul Gybels<br />
Professor of Yiddish Language, Literature and Culture<br />
Institute for Jewish Studies<br />
Universiteit Antwerpen (Belgium, Europe)</p>
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